First (& sorry to repeat myself), but here are 2 "What I like" bullets from my "Random Thoughts from the Motherland" post:
- I'm not saying that all marriages in India are perfect or anywhere close, but I admire that marriages - for the most part - are about core cultural & family values. Most of all, they are about compromise & commitment especially in the arranged-marriage type situations, which by the way, I have no more unlove for. I've seen and spent time with so many our-generation arranged-marriage couples & they are AMAZING - just as if not more than most love marriage couples I know. When it comes to marriages & families, people here make it less about "me," personal satisfaction, appearances (i.e. - how hot one's wife looks after having babies) or other should-not be-end-all-be-all-type-things (like how hot sex is however many years into marriages), but about a shared purpose of what's good for the family or what people here often speak to - their "duty" as a wife/husband/mother/father (plus daughter/son). Again, I'm not saying that couples in the US - Indian & non - don't operate the same way, but I definitely think its to a different degree in both countries.
- Things happen with a certain timeliness here... I've said it in other posts, but I really do appreciate & respect that sense of urgency for what I personally think are 2 of life's most important life's happenings - marriage & kids. In India, for the majority of the population as soon as you finish your undergraduate studies the search for finding one's jeevan saathi (aka life partner) begins. When I told people in India about American dating/marriage timelines and trends - for example, how one is practically deemed crazy if you are in your mid 20's and want to get married (especially if you are a female) and how most people want to delay having kids for as long as they can post getting married so that they can enjoy without-kids married life - they all had a moment of quiet gratitude that they were raised in India and many chuckled out of pity as if we had it all backwards. On top of that, several people who are our age and had arranged marriages (families searched on their behalf, they met one or two times & then were allowed to say "yay or nay") said something along these lines (a bit of this gets lost in translating Hindi to English!)... "It's interesting that in the US you do everything out of your own choice including who you choose to marry. However, 50+% of these 'love marriages' end in divorce. We might not know wild passionate romance or know what the US version of 'in love' feels like, but I think we Indians here as a whole have a better sense of 'love' in its true meaning."
So, first off, I believe that one big reason why people in India who have arranged marriages have less overall dissatisfaction in their marriages (I'm only speaking to the relationships that I observed) is because unlike how things proceed in America, most people live very conservative & what those of us who are raised here would probably consider repressed lives well until their college & even post-college years. In general, Indian culture overall (in spite of what you see in Bollywood movies nowadays) is conservative in the sense that children & teenagers are not free to roam about as they please and boys & girls don't interact/date freely out in the open in their younger (& even older years) because it is not accepted by most general standards.
I understand that things in the big cities are perhaps different, but what I saw happening in the clubs of Mumbai - makeout fests galore - would still not be perceived as a-okay on the streets of Mumbai. Most importantly, parents teach their kids - boys & girls - this wonderful thing at a young age called "sharam" (shame), & this results in young people being more aware of their actions and fearful of the possible repercussions of acting out, the biggest of which is disappointing your parents/scrutiny from your family/community. As a result, young people actually stay young (i.e. - act in an age-appropriate way), and because of this overall cultural conservatism, most people don't have relationships in their teens, there are no 16-year old (not even 30-year old) celebrities who are made out to be heroes on the covers of magazines for getting knocked up out of wedlock, there are no shows called "Teen Mom" & young people are not desperate to have adult relationship experiences early on in life.
As a result, the vast majority of the in-India population has no or very limited relationship/dating experience before marriage. Besides what they see in movies (which they believe only happens in the movies, don't aspire to duplicate & therefore do not feel like their lives are "less than" because of), they do not have any or many relationships to make comparisons between nor do they have the multitude of factors that people make comparisons & hence relationship decisions (both to stay or go) on; i.e. "my last boyfriend did this better... my new girlfriend is really great, but she's not as..." The more relationship experiences - whether they be physical or not - the more all of us are left in this often disappointing pursuit of our ultimate version of perfection.
On top of that, young people in India have grown up believing (& again, this is for the most part) that the ultimate goal in life is to have a successful family life which to them means marriage & then kids. I'm not saying this is right or wrong or should be anyone's purpose in life, but aren't most of us in the U.S. aspiring for the same exact thing (hence, every dating show, book, coach, "networking" event, website, therapist, Vijay Uncle's 1000+ friends, this blog, etc. that all relate to that big "life goal")?? In spite of ultimately wanting that (& I think it's just a biological need more than a want), we are willing to make zero or only very limited compromises/sacrifices on our way to getting there & are also willing to end good/great relationships or pass up on promising connections with people because of "bad timing" due to long distance, completing some part of your schooling, not having dated/experienced enough or in general, our life's "ducks" not being in a row (for those of you who are like me & don't like/understand most idioms, that means to have everything in your life in order) or worse, because we are always wondering "what else (that's better) is out there??" (for example, "My relationship of 3 years has been great & all, but I'm only 24, so....")
For 90+% of the 1st-generation Indians reading this, your parents had an arranged marriage. Now I'll tell you the story of my parents & I imagine that the story of many of your parents was not far too different... my dad was 21, my mom was 20 & they had just completed their undergrad studies when my grandparents started their search looking for basic criteria... my parents were able to meet one or two times as the decision was ultimately theirs. They both said yes & were married soon after. My dad was a perpetual student with his sights set on the U.S., & my mom had a job as a teacher; she was the breadwinner for the first several months of marriage & this did not kill his ego "as a man." It was eventually time to leave India & just as your parents did (some of yours with a child in tow), they left everything & everyone they knew & made an almost 10,000 mile journey with "$8 in their pocket, nothing to their names." My dad continued his studies and between his scholarship and my mom working small jobs, they were just barely able to make ends meet. Slowly but surely they went from a studio apartment in the worst part of Brooklyn with their 2 small children to owning a home, cars & "the good life" by all American standards, but being the true desi parents that they are, that success is small in comparison to the ultimate success that all our parents strive for - the success of their children.
Sure, the values of their generation were very different than the values of our generation & times have completely changed so what worked then perhaps wouldn't now, but the point still is that they made things work in spite of their circumstances. They didn't wait to make their way towards their ultimate goal until everything was lined up perfectly (i.e. - my Dad was done with student life, he was making an income, they had more than $8 to their name, etc.) & most importantly, they didn't give up when things were less than perfect. I don't know if it's because in our world of weekly nights out, countless "networking" events, online dating & a "if it's not you, then no worries b/c there will be someone else" mentality, that we believe we have infinite options & therefore a million excuses for not pursuing opportunities with potential prospects. Whatever the reasons are, I just think it's sad that we have become a generation of countless failed relationships - whether they be multiple (& often lengthy) stints as boyfriend-girlfriend pairs, broken engagements or divorces.
Lastly, I'd like to tell you about the couple I stayed with in Mumbai (the ones who offered for me to stay with them because of my connection to their cousin in the U.S.). The couple is in their mid to late 30's, & they have 2 young daughters, who if I'm remembering correctly are 6 & 8 years old. The husband was out of town for the first part of my visit, so the wife & I immediately bonded. I saw pictures of her & her husband and listened to her recount stories of their married life together; hearing the naturalness & ease in her tone, I asked her how they'd met assuming that they had a "love marriage." She laughed saying "that's what everyone thinks, but we had a typical arranged marriage" (they are both from big cities, modern families). She said that when she was in her mid-20's her parents began their search for & it was quite torturous for her... showing up in sarees, serving tea & what not. After having screened & said "no" to many prospects, she was at her wit's end & refused to wear a saree for her next meeting; she also told her father that she would not go anywhere with the boy for "coffee/tea."
However, her father had already pre-planned that his daughter & the prospect would go meet on their own. She begrudgingly went & while a driver took them to a coffee shop, she sat awkwardly in the back seat with "this boy." The car came to a sudden halt & with a complete naturalness, he reached his hand out to her shoulder to keep her from hitting the front seat. She said to me, "it was in that single moment, that I knew that he was the one" & that's how he has been ever since - simple and caring. She said that although theirs is not an over-the-top romance, and her & her husband might never say "I love you" out loud to each other, they love each other. They are best friends, do not live their lives based on "roles/expectations" of husbands/wives, but do have a shared common purpose - living a moderate, but good & happy life by all standards & making the best life possible for their children.
Well, I'll wrap up by saying that after my time spent in India, I now also have zero unlove for guys going to India to search for their potential partner; before, it used to make my blood boil that these guys would waste the time of all these girls stateside only to then come back with a "made-to-order-bride" (as I believe I'd called it :-P), but really, it's not the fault of these guys that "they waste our time;" it's our fault because we let them (meaning we often stay in dysfunctional or zero potential relationships/situations in spite of knowing better). On a related side note, I think the book "Don't Bet on the Prince - How to Have the Man You Want by Betting on Yourself" (by Gilda Carle) should be a required read for every female 14+; this book is not a male bashing - it's actually a female bashing by another female on how "uh-duhhh/ someone should smack you upside the head for being so dumb" so many of us are when it comes to men. Sorry, back to my point... so.... if at the end of the day, desi men here don't feel like they are finding what they want , I say more power to them to go explore their options elsewhere.
Also on that note, although I previously said that girls "can't" do the same, I no longer feel that way because although it wasn't for the purpose of meeting guys specifically for "rishte" (relationship/marriage) reasons, I got to meet tons of raised-in-India-guys - married & single - who were just such wonderful & open-minded people. & while I was there, I kept thinking "oh wow, I wish I had been open-minded during all my previous trips to India (or had thought about it before coming on this one!) to considering prospects from there. Sure, there are your horror stories of from-India guys & girls, but we all know that any relationship you embark on - irrespective of where the person is from, how you know them, & how long you dated - is a risk & has no guarantees. I seriously & highly recommend - especially to the young-to-late-20-somethings & whether you are a guy or a girl - that the next time you are in India & your family suggests that you meet some people, at least humor them, because you really just never know.
Hai ram, as always, that was long so for those of you who read through the end (& even to those who tried but couldn't make it), thank you.
Write Soon ~ SmileMoon :)

I was wondering if you are still single. If you are still single, why are you single?
ReplyDeleteHi Anonymous, it makes sense that you'd wonder that considering I write this blog (& the answer is yes, I am), but the "why" part is a bit tough (to answer myself although I'm sure plenty of SM-observers have theories of their own). So, I'm not sure if you're asking in the way that a lot of people - guys & girls alike - ask when they meet me for the first time "omg, why are you still single?!" as if some deep dark secret would be the reason since they otherwise can't come up with one which I know they mean as a compliment, but it's always a bizarre question in the moment.
ReplyDeleteOne thing that I DO know is that I think & care deeply about the human condition (hence this blog) and am an idealist by nature. I believe opposites definitely attract, but don't last, so long-term I am looking for someone who feels compelled to also do whatever he can to "make a difference" (as cliched as that phrase is) & someone who inspires me to do/be more, so basically shared values & goals. & at the same time, that chemistry/connection also has to be there.
Unfortunately, most of the time, I find that the guys I meet are 95% only interested in the physical - being physical or their physical interest in me (that is not a self-compliment - it's not a big thing to meet guys who are interested in "getting some") is their only motivation for their charm, but they don't actually care about what's under the surface. Thankfully, my radar for those kinds of guys is at an all time high & my tolerance an all time low, so I nip those situations in the bud with a quickness.
I know what I'm looking for might sound too idealistic, perhaps even picky, & that people often say that "all those kinds of guys - 'the good guys' - are taken." Well, I don't believe that & although I'm definitely proactive about meeting someone, I know that I'd be happier on my own rather than settling with someone simply for the sake of being married. Life can be both too long & sadly sometimes, too short, to be with the wrong person.
I'm be curious to know why other people think they are "still single." Is it the opposite sex & how they are that's the problem? Or something else?
very good, provacative post--and I agree with many of your points SM: One reason why so many American-born/bred desis have dffficulty in finding the one is because we pigeonhole ourselves into thinking we can ONLY be with an american born/bred desi because those in India are too 'conservative', 'dominating/submissive' and/or backwards..well the world is changing rapidly...we have to realize that Indians in India have (largely) moved leaps and bounds in terms of liberalizing themselves
ReplyDeleteSM, my girl cousin met a guy who was from India and they lived in the US for 5 years and then ended up moving to Delhi for a great job opportunity. They're very happy so you're right that you never know. For most of my 20s I refused to talk to guys who had even a slight fob accent as well as other really stupid dealbreakers. I also said HELL NO to my family in India when they would say I should meet people there until I eventually stopped visiting. The prospect of having to respond to being "so old and a girl" was too horrifying. I really wish I could kick myself because here I am still single so many years later, and I have also managed to miss out on visiting India for more than 6 years. Did your family there give you a lot of grief about it?
ReplyDeleteTo the women readers: If you go out on dates with a guy, do you at any point wonder what the guy's intentions are if he doesn't make any physical move on you (ex. going in for that elusive first kiss) for the first couple of dates?
ReplyDeleteMale Reader
Hi SM,
ReplyDeleteI found your blog off Vijay Uncle's FB page, and I must say it's refreshing to find someone who is willing to voice an opinion and reason about it.
That being said, I wanted to share my perspective as an 1st generation Indian-American male and offer another way to look at some of the claims you make.
"Whatever the reasons are, I just think it's sad that we have become a generation of countless failed relationships - whether they be multiple (& often lengthy) stints as boyfriend-girlfriend pairs, broken engagements or divorces."
I have dated (seriously and lengthily) a few other women in the past, and I must say that none of them were failures. I thought of them as failures at the time, but in retrospect, the lessons I learned from them showed me that my relationship with my current girlfriend (and now, consequently, fiancee) WILL work. Not because I'm Indian and I'm culturally obligated to make it work lest I bring shame on the family. Not because we have kids and "we're making it work for them." Not for any exogenous pressures at all. It works because I took the time to know who I am and what I want and go get it. To quote Edison, "I never failed. I discovered a thousand ways NOT to make a lightbulb."
"I personally think are 2 of life's most important life's happenings - marriage & kids. In India, for the majority of the population as soon as you finish your undergraduate studies the search for finding one's jeevan saathi (aka life partner) begins."
It's interesting you couple this statement with commentary from Indian couples citing America's 50% divorce rate. A few thoughts. In India, most professional degrees ARE college degrees, including LLB and MBBS, so waiting until you finish college is the equivalent of finishing graduate training here, they just do it faster because they have a different interpretation and timeline of "college." So we're not really doing it all that differently. My fiancee wanted someone with a graduate degree, so even though she finished college (and her MBA) by 21 (She's a smarty!), she still had to wait around till the rest of us caught up, or settle for less. In waiting around, she found someone (me, blessedly) that already knew what he wanted and when presented with it, didn't dally around (for too long).
That's not to mention that if you look at the actual divorce statistics in the United States, between 35-40% of divorcees (male and female) got MARRIED between the ages of 20-24 years. There's no doubt the divorce rate is high, but if you go to India, you find that those "modern, liberal" Indian girls and guys actually fare no better - the divorce rates in the urban populous of India approaches 40%. It's the rural/tribal(/and sometimes city) parts of India where we still burn the brides we don't want that have low divorce rates because those are "deaths."
Of course, then you go on to comment, "I know what I'm looking for might sound too idealistic, perhaps even picky, & that people often say that "all those kinds of guys - 'the good guys' - are taken." Well, I don't believe that & although I'm definitely proactive about meeting someone, I know that I'd be happier on my own rather than settling with someone simply for the sake of being married. Life can be both too long & sadly sometimes, too short, to be with the wrong person," with which I could not agree more. Yet I find it difficult to see how that is substantially different from the "compromise and commitment" you prize in your observations of Indian married couples.
In summation, let me play devils advocate and suggest that the REAL reason that Indian arranged marriages work (in particular, the kind where two people meet briefly and agree to be married shortly thereafter) is multifactorial:
A young couple, each of whom have yet to form a personal sense of identity, meets and, ignorant of the other's yet-unrecognized personality traits, agrees to get married. They discover frustrating and incomprehensible traits in their partners (some benign like leaving the toilet seat up, and others malignant, like violence), but instead of sorting them out, they immediately cast themselves together into extraordinarily risk endeavors (moving penniless to the USA for our parents, or having children at a young age for us). These risks engender a survival-of-the-fittest mentality and greatly outweigh the negative impact of each others' personality traits. Once they have settled into a rhythm, however, these personality traits flare and become a source of conflict, discomfort and unhappiness because the individuals have not built a firm sense of identity through which they can pick and choose their battles. However, these couples have now locked themselves into a relationship with the shackles of children, culture and social stigma, and unable to seek greater happiness, content themselves with the belief that "this way is better anyway."
ReplyDeleteTo what end? To be married with kids at 25? I'll be married with kids within 5-6 years of that. Yet for the next FORTY years (God willing), I get to spend my life with a woman that rocks my world mentally and spiritually every single day. I have spent the time to know what I can and can't handle and cleared it up front. I know I can deal with her quirks, and she knows what mine are. And she will get a husband who is confident in himself yet worships the ground she walks on, not because he has to, but because there is nothing in the world that would make him happier. I get the "Indian" love of commitment and compromise AND I get ALL the extraordinary moments of happiness of being "in love."
I'm sure arranged marriage is fine and things generally turn out okay, but call me risk averse, crazy, or whatever, because I couldn't possibly imagine doing it any other way than how we did it.
12:42, that's awesome about your cousin (i'm curious how they met), & i wouldn't say "grief" necessarily, but they definitely said stuff like "ab tak shaadi nahi hui?" (you're not married yet?) my original plan after my last trip @ 26 was also to not go back "until i was engaged" & doing my wedding shopping (naturally :-P). that was more of a practical decision, but then i realized that (considering i was still very single) that could leave me at not going to the motherland for a long time & i missed my peoples! i spoke to my family there openly about the process & challenges, & they were all really understanding. to the few non-family who had something rude to say, i said that if i had wanted to be "just married" i could have been many times & many years ago & that i was looking for more than that; that usually shut them up. everyone did, however, encourage me to look for a "dhula" there. :-P
ReplyDelete2:06 - i honestly can't speak to this b/c i can't remember the last time i properly "dated" someone. how sad?
AD - thank you for taking the time to really get into it & i love your sentiments on your fiance & your relationship. ok, so let's see... i def agree that relationships are always learning experiences; i just find it disconcerting that many of us have been doing this dating thing for a good chunk of our lives & for many, it seems like they just go from one relationship to the next. i understand when any 3-to-6 month relationship comes to an end, but i find difficult to understand why a couple who was dating for several years (in their late 20's) & engaged/married couples (also having had dated for so long as well) also end things.
as for the divorce stats about india vs. the US, i agree on all points; the 50% comparison was something that came up in a conversation with a couple in india.
now onto my comment... the above post was definitely admiring those couples that i saw in india - both in the big & small cities (& even villages) - but i hope i didn't say or imply that i wanted to go the arranged marriage route. having been born & raised here, that's something i couldn't & wouldn't do, so at the end of the day, my personal preference lends more towards the "american way" (hence my still being "picky") although it's definitely peppered with the desi marriage ideals.
& i agree about what you're saying about young couples getting married, but my whole concern is really about those of us in our late 20s, 30s & some now approaching 40, who are unable to get it together after multiple relationship attempts. sure, each relationship is a learning experience, but why do people waste so much of each other's time?? & it seems like the older we get, the more NIT-picky & less compromising we also become. that's what i think is wrong about our generation.
& again, the couples that i saw in india came from every financial status, got married anywhere from 18 to 29, & these couples are genuinely happy & have great chemistry with each other. if that was all a show, then they are some amazing actors.
well, i have to run, but thanks to everyone for commenting!
i think it would be realy difficult to generalize about relationships and which one is more successful/fulfilling. I'm in an "arranged" marriage--and I love it. Im born and bred here but through family was introduced to a wonderful man. We did only meet once prior to committment (spoke on the phone extensively), but had full freedom to say no. We are happily married, and one of the greatest things about our marriage is that we (even after 2 years) are learning more about each other every day. But likewise I can definitely see the perks of dating someone without the immediate "pressure" or "thought" of marriage. Regardless, I do feel that those interested in marriage (seriously) shouldnt frown upon an introduction from family members or friends. the definition of arranged marriage isnt like it was for our parents (for the most part)--you do have full freedom to get to know your potential spouse and the "love", chemistry/attraction and all the other things people want in a spouse does come, much sooner that most people think. Give everything a chance, whether its dating smeone you meet on your own, or through another person. Like SM and others have said, you really never know.
ReplyDeleteI don't know if I would consider having the privilege to say "no" to a guy/girl before getting married "arranged". To me, arranged would be more so where you don't really have a choice in the matter when you're getting married to someone. If you're being introduced to someone through family/friends then it's not really arranged. It's not a love marriage but not arranged either (not to say that you can't fall in love before getting married).
ReplyDeleteSM- Fair enough that you haven't "dated" someone properly but what are your thoughts on it. I'm sorry to go off topic but it's an interesting subject to discuss and perhaps you can write another post on it. I know a lot of women complain about guys just caring about the physical aspects but do they have doubts when the guy doesn't make a physical move yet is still calling her and wants to see her?
Male Reader
i would think male reader's definition of arranged marriage doesnt really exist any longer. most families, whether in india or here, give their children the freedom to veto their spouse.
ReplyDelete12:06, sorry about the tangent above & i will definitely bring up your question in a future posting. in the meantime though, i can say that from conversations with my girlfriends about dating in general, if a guy was being persistent with calling/seeing her & he still makes it apparent that he was attracted to the girl in other ways without manhandling her, we would simply think that he was a very nice change from the norm. & i truly believe that if our entire generation single population - desi or non - explored new relationships in the way i'm assuming you are exploring with someone, we'd all be much better off.
ReplyDeleteI remember reading that the divorce rates for the couples that were married by the moonie cult in their mass wedding was no different than the normal divorce rate; the divorce rate is a bad way to measure whether arranged marriages are better than "love" marriages.
ReplyDeleteAt the end of the day, it is about whether someone has the time, the maturity, the experience to evaluate another person and make a decision.
Unfortunately, most Indian ppl (and I've only observed fellow-fobs) do not have the experience or the maturity to know what they want, what their potential mate might want, how their priorities might change, etc.
-raja
@ Raja - whoa whoa whoa, I cant believe you said this -
ReplyDelete"Unfortunately, most Indian ppl (and I've only observed fellow-fobs) do not have the experience or the maturity to know what they want, what their potential mate might want, how their priorities might change, etc."
I am a fob who moved from singapore to usa few years back.. I canot believe you made a sweepign statement like this ... I am assuming you have never made any mistakes and are living happily ever after!